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Hi, I've viewed posts on the Duster 4WD (inc. ESC/ASR system) and I've followed Nick's link to the Nissan X-trail system guide. All v v useful and (as a few members will know) I've just ordered a Laureate 4WD with ESC/ASR. However, I'm still a bit confused on the 4WD system. Dacia web-site doesn't seem to offer a route for technical questions so thought I'd ask the forum. Here are 3 quotes from the (not very helpful) owners Manual:

1. Page 2.14 - "... do not start the engine if one or more wheels are not in contact with the ground ..."

2. Page 2.13 (Ref. locked mode) - "... driving on soft ground (sand, mud, deep snow) we recommend that you deactivate the ESP function ..."

3. Page 2.17 (Ref. Disabling the ESP function) - "... (driving on very wet ground: snow, mud ...) the system may reduce the engine output to limit wheel-spin. If this is not required, it is possible to deactivate the function ..."

There are a couple of other sentences that leave me none-the-wiser, but I'll hold onto them for now.

So my questions:

Re quote 1 - two questions:

A. If the gear-lever is in neutral, why would starting the engine, with one or more wheels off the ground, matter?

B. If I follow the guidance to the letter and I'm off-road with a stalled engine while one or more wheels are off the ground - what am I supposed to do?, Obviously I shall want to restart the engine, but what can I expect to happen if I do (again, while in neutral)? [You will have already guessed that I have no experience of gritty off-roading with any 'clever' 4WD system vehicle.]

Re quotes 2 and 3 -

Page 2.13 (quote 2) recommends that one de-activates ESP in locked 4WD mode, but page 2.17 (quote 3) suggests that ESP deactivation is only required if one wants to avoid reduction in engine output. What, exactly are they talking about?

Any clues regarding the above please?

Rob A
 

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Hello, just read your post. If you dont mind, how old are you and what work do you do.

Not having a dig at your post, I am just curious to who posts what sort of questions.

Peter

Oh BTW I drove my car off road last week, stupidly I did not read the manual, but it worked fine! (Got some admiring comments from drivers of so called real 4x4s)
 

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Hi Peter, As it happens, I'm 58. I have started an "Outdoor Services" business - grounds maintenance, gardening and the like. (So far, going rather well I'm pleased to say.) I also have a folding roof-topping boat and will be looking to launch her from some out-of-the-way places.

I asked the 4WD questions because I like to know how things work and why. I also wish to know how to "protect" the 4WD system for long-term durabilty. The manual offers quite a few cautions (including not to start engine with wheel/s off the ground), but doesn't really explain why.

Also, it is not at all clear (to me) why switching ESP off in 4WD lock mode is recommended. And the sentence "This is particularly useful when crossed a bridge." leaves me wondering big time. What's so special about a bridge, for goodness sake, when most of us are going to be wondering how best to get our 4WD Duster along a slippery rutted track, rocky shoreline, soft sandy beach or sodden field.

Any clues?

Rob A
 

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I am no expert on this but i believe that the ESP interferes with the operation of 4WD in Auto or lock mode as these use their own system of solenoids and electronically operated clutches to control the grip of each individual wheel.

If you had ESP working at the same time, the power distribution control and individual wheel braking would confuse the input to the 4WD system modules.

Hope this helps,

Tozci. (Tony)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Tozci. That will need some thinking about. I'll go back to Nick's link to the X-trail 4WD systematics and see if it gels. Rob A
 

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@arob.wk

1. Page 2.14 - "... do not start the engine if one or more wheels are not in contact with the ground .

A. If the gear-lever is in neutral, why would starting the engine, with one or more wheels off the ground, matter?

i hope this answer ur question

for example if ure raising the car on a car elevator even in neutral, the clutch its still in touch with the flywheel, if the engine is running even in neutral the wheels are slowly rotating, this is a caution thing that they are referring to, not to be held liable for accidents lawsuits etc

Electronic Stability Control (ESC), also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP) or dynamic stability control (DSC), is a computerized technology [1][2] that improves the safety of a vehicle's stability by detecting and reducing loss of traction (skidding).[3] When ESC detects loss of steering control, it automatically applies the brakes to help "steer" the vehicle where the driver intends to go. Braking is automatically applied to wheels individually, such as the outer front wheel to counter oversteer or the inner rear wheel to counter understeer. Some ESC systems also reduce engine power until control is regained. ESC does not improve a vehicle's cornering performance; instead, it helps to minimize the loss of control. According to Insurance Institute for Highway Safety and the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, one-third of fatal accidents could have been prevented by the use of the technology.[4][5]

source wikipedia

i also agree with tozci

the two systems would go head to head esc breaking to get grip, but u aplying power to get out from the predicament, thus in 4x4 lock being an automatic system one will be disable

both systems help gets grip but each in the opposite manner

or in less words esc esp its used for driving on the road at relatively highspeeds

when u go off road its useless
 

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Prinsibily you are correct , the system is designed for heavy right footed people ,and when you are placed in situations through no fault of you own . Having had it kick in several times , it is a life saver !!!! You should also think that the Duster is higher of the ground and their for has a higher centre of gravity. Des
 

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agree but the question was why the esc has to be off when in 4wd (lock) not auto mode 4wd

in normal way being both systems electronics when u engage 4wd LOCK the esc light will go on thus meaning that the esc system is disengaged automaticaly

esc doesn't have anything to do with the car height

when u offroading u are crawling very slow speed lots of torque if esc would be engaged u ll virtualy be stoped in place
 

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I'm liking this thread. Thanks for all your posts. I believe I'm much closer to understanding. I'll put it all together and come back with my own summary when I'm confident.

Thanks again, Rob A
 

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Hi, I've viewed posts on the Duster 4WD (inc. ESC/ASR system) and I've followed Nick's link to the Nissan X-trail system guide. All v v useful and (as a few members will know) I've just ordered a Laureate 4WD with ESC/ASR. However, I'm still a bit confused on the 4WD system. Dacia web-site doesn't seem to offer a route for technical questions so thought I'd ask the forum. Here are 3 quotes from the (not very helpful) owners Manual:

1. Page 2.14 - "... do not start the engine if one or more wheels are not in contact with the ground ..."

2. Page 2.13 (Ref. locked mode) - "... driving on soft ground (sand, mud, deep snow) we recommend that you deactivate the ESP function ..."

3. Page 2.17 (Ref. Disabling the ESP function) - "... (driving on very wet ground: snow, mud ...) the system may reduce the engine output to limit wheel-spin. If this is not required, it is possible to deactivate the function ..."

There are a couple of other sentences that leave me none-the-wiser, but I'll hold onto them for now.

So my questions:

Re quote 1 - two questions:

A. If the gear-lever is in neutral, why would starting the engine, with one or more wheels off the ground, matter?

B. If I follow the guidance to the letter and I'm off-road with a stalled engine while one or more wheels are off the ground - what am I supposed to do?, Obviously I shall want to restart the engine, but what can I expect to happen if I do (again, while in neutral)? [You will have already guessed that I have no experience of gritty off-roading with any 'clever' 4WD system vehicle.]

Re quotes 2 and 3 -

Page 2.13 (quote 2) recommends that one de-activates ESP in locked 4WD mode, but page 2.17 (quote 3) suggests that ESP deactivation is only required if one wants to avoid reduction in engine output. What, exactly are they talking about?

Any clues regarding the above please?

Rob A

 

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That's a great explanation of ESC antavi, thanks for posting it.
 
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This is a catch 22.....!!

If even one wheel is not in contact with the ground do not start the engine?

So I am off roading and being careful, but I stall the engineon a slow very rocky bumpy bit and have a back wheel off the ground because of the angle and a front wheen in a bit of a hole

I'm not allowed to start the engine.

You must not tow the 4x4, you have to flatbed or have a suspended tow with the two remaining wheels on a trolley/bogey...but a recovery truck can't get to the off-road location where I am.

Lock car..kiss it goodbye...walk home and buy a new Duster in the morning!! B) :unsure:
 

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Well they're cheap enough :lol:
 
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This is a catch 22.....!!

If even one wheel is not in contact with the ground do not start the engine?

So I am off roading and being careful, but I stall the engineon a slow very rocky bumpy bit and have a back wheel off the ground because of the angle and a front wheen in a bit of a hole

I'm not allowed to start the engine.

You must not tow the 4x4, you have to flatbed or have a suspended tow with the two remaining wheels on a trolley/bogey...but a recovery truck can't get to the off-road location where I am.

Lock car..kiss it goodbye...walk home and buy a new Duster in the morning!! B) :unsure:
i understand what u are asking

i explain this in an earlier post its a caution thing in case that the car its on elevator (i presume)

anyhow from what i know if the engine stalls in 4wd lock one wheel up, the system disengage automatic the lock bit of the system

start the engine again reengage the 4wd lock again manually and drive away

i agree dacia people propably were a bit to vague in their explications there
 

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I know....and if the wear on all four tyres is not absolutely even, the whole thing will overwork itself to death and it will be the end of the world...apparently.

It also heats up if there is a lot of adjustment of grip from back to front and back again, and then you have to stop for about 15 minutes to let it cool down.

I am going to take it all as cautionary until I finally take delivery of mine and explore its limitations carefully and incrementally.
 

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dadford

I am going to take it all as cautionary until I finally take delivery of mine and explore its limitations carefully and incrementally.

that was what i just want it to say to u

worrie less, enjoy the car when ull get it

when u will see it in action live u will understand much better the specs and what this that do and how, just like in life, school learning by practice
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
in normal way being both systems electronics when u engage 4wd LOCK the esc light will go on thus meaning that the esc system is disengaged automaticaly
Antavi. During my Duster test-drive and my test of 4WD mode, I didn't notice whether the ESP-off warning symbol lit up on the dash-board in 4WD lock mode I wasn't concentrating on the dash-board at the time! However, thinking about your advice (quoted above), automatic "off" of ESC/ASR in 4WD-lock mode makes sense given all of the advice (yours and others') about conflicts between 4WD lock-mode and ESP/ASR. Shame the Dacia Driver's Manual doesn't cover the fact clearly. If it had covered this point, I would not have been in a dilemma about whether to disengage ESP/ASR (or not) for 'off-road' conditions and would have simply accepted the fact that ESP/ASR and 4WD lock are incompatible (even if I didn't understand why, completely).

As per your advice to Dadford&son, I reckon I should stop worrying about this and just wait until I can experience my own Duster 4WD in real situations.

Also; in 'wheel off the ground' circumstances off-road, I shall simply re-start her and get on with it! I couldn't quite believe it would be a no-no (otherwise, they wouldn't sell many 4WDs to off-roaders).

I still don't entirely understand why Dacia/Renault/Nisssan say one shouldn't start engine with a wheel off ground (in neutral), but I can live with that so am not going to wonder about it any more.

Thanks much for your input (and input from others), Rob A
 

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Antavi. During my Duster test-drive and my test of 4WD mode, I didn't notice whether the ESP-off warning symbol lit up on the dash-board in 4WD lock mode I wasn't concentrating on the dash-board at the time! However, thinking about your advice (quoted above), automatic "off" of ESC/ASR in 4WD-lock mode makes sense given all of the advice (yours and others') about conflicts between 4WD lock-mode and ESP/ASR. Shame the Dacia Driver's Manual doesn't cover the fact clearly. If it had covered this point, I would not have been in a dilemma about whether to disengage ESP/ASR (or not) for 'off-road' conditions and would have simply accepted the fact that ESP/ASR and 4WD lock are incompatible (even if I didn't understand why, completely).

As per your advice to Dadford&son, I reckon I should stop worrying about this and just wait until I can experience my own Duster 4WD in real situations.

Also; in 'wheel off the ground' circumstances off-road, I shall simply re-start her and get on with it! I couldn't quite believe it would be a no-no (otherwise, they wouldn't sell many 4WDs to off-roaders).

I still don't entirely understand why Dacia/Renault/Nisssan say one shouldn't start engine with a wheel off ground (in neutral), but I can live with that so am not going to wonder about it any more.

Thanks much for your input (and input from others), Rob A
the systems aren't quite incompatible, but one (esc) works for u at greater speeds lets say above 15 20 miles/h, less than that using it when OFFROADING its useless hence the advice from dacia me or others to disengage the system when offroading because when u are offroading u are crawling and the esc would practically stop u in ur way by engaging the braking in the wheels

this feature that i mention that it will be automatically disengaged i saw it in other most expensive offroad cars, its possible that the duster doesn't do it by its self thus the advice in the book from dacia to disengage it manually and the separate switch, also because its used in auto mode when the computers do all the work

auto mode its usualy used in lets say, light offroading or on the road when its needed and exists in duster because its primordial a front wheel drive car, thats why the true offroad vehicles have the second gear shift stick for engaging the differential manually and are all primordial rear wheels drive cars

dacia doesn't cover this subject complitly, cause the duster its a car, with, indeed, true offroad capabilities, but its not purposely built for that , its a road car, that its cleverly engineered and they managed (angles for approach departure and so on ) all together resulting in a quite impressive offroading capabilities but its built for the road

for example the abs system starts working in about the same way, i mean speeds above lets say 10 miles/h, less than that and it wont engage, when u press the brakes the car breaks and stop

what i now about the esc light on the dash is, when it blinks the system its working, if the light stays on its turn off

the system by default its always on meaning the light its off

about the situation with the wheel in the air and engine stopped and restarting it, i think what i said before that its a caution when u are in a garage cause in the field offroading doesnt make sense, maybe i dont get it cause its out of context

and another thing, u havent notice the light in ur test drive cause the 4wdlock mode test drive its made in low speeds if u accelerate and gaine speed the 4wdlock will disengage automaticaly protecting the drive train, the differential

do not compare the 4wd system with the awd system, which its design to drive the all 4 wheels permanent at high speeds

for example the awd system developed and patented by audi which its called QUATRO, or the awd system in the subaru`s which are 4x4 permanent systems

the 4x4 (4wd) its not the same thing with the 4x4 (awd)
 
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